#60 Flipping the CAPEX Paradigm: the Privatization of Energy with Industry Titan Dr. Bartosz Wojszczyk on 9×90™

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About this episode

For those of you who do not know 888, #he …

The CAPEX to OPEX Paradigm Shift: We explore how savvy commercial real estate developers and institutional investors are flipping the script—transforming energy infrastructure (like storage and EV charging) from a traditional cost center into a dedicated profit center that increases Net Operating Income (NOI).
Creative Financial Modeling & Monetization: We break down the mechanics of revenue-sharing agreements, localized load management (BMS), and cross-beneficial monetization strategies that don’t rely on expanding utility capacity.
Global Scale & National Security: The conversation spans from deploying DC microgrids in developing nations to a massive 5,100-acre privatization project in Pennsylvania, partnering with the Department of War to build 100% utility-independent infrastructure for AI data centers and resource extraction.

About this guest

From Electrician to Industry Titan: Dr. Bartosz K. Wojszczyk built his foundation as an electrician in Poland before earning engineering degrees, immigrating to the U.S., and managing a $100 million engineering, procurement, and construction (EPC) contract for Puget Sound Energy.
Billion-Dollar Scaling Expertise: He spearheaded a smart grid business for General Electric, successfully scaling the division from zero to $2.5 billion in revenue.
$50B Global Infrastructure Architect: Over the course of his career, he has executed more than $50 billion in energy infrastructure projects. For the past decade, he has focused on operating and scaling independent energy businesses, including launching a dedicated investment fund focused on hydrogen and EV technologies.

Connect with this guest

Connect with Dr. Bartosz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bartoszwojszczyk/

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National Energy Holdings’ subsidiaries serve the entire energy market, from distribution and fulfillment of our powerful solar and storage technologies, to our lu®crative financing solutions of our own energy fund, we are advancing renewable energy by creating investment opportunities throughout the entire green energy ecosystem.

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Show Notes Generated by Gemini

These show notes were generated by AI

Guest Background and Career (00:01:10 – 00:02:03) Dr. Bartosz K. Wojszczyk began his career as an electrician before earning engineering degrees in Poland and moving to the United States. He worked for Puget Sound Energy, managing a $100 million engineering, procurement, and construction (EPC) contract, and later led a smart grid business for General Electric that grew from zero to $2.5 billion (00:01:10). After working on a $1 billion investment for a Southeast Asian utility, he opened an investment fund focused on hydrogen and EV technologies, spending the last 10 years operating and scaling energy infrastructure businesses (00:02:03). The episode sponsor, National Energy Holdings, is introduced as a firm that engineers, constructs, and operates energy infrastructure for real estate projects, often utilizing 80/20 revenue-share models over 25-year terms (00:00:02).

Energy Infrastructure as a Profit Center (00:03:28) Historically, companies viewed energy infrastructure as a cost center, treating it merely as a utility bill or a source of peak rate charges. In the last five years, with the emergence of energy storage and EV charging, businesses have started shifting their perspective to view these distributed assets as opportunities to generate revenue, improve operational efficiency, and increase the net operating income (NOI) of their real estate.

Financial Modeling for Infrastructure (00:04:45 – 00:06:02) Designing a sound financial performance model is essential when deploying energy infrastructure in commercial real estate. Developers must analyze customer profiles—such as the tenants in multi-family complexes or guests at hotels—to gauge pricing sensitivity and demand for amenities like reserved charging spots (00:04:45). By collaborating with EPC partners, developers can create creative business models, such as premium amenity fees or revenue-sharing agreements, that allow both energy and real estate stakeholders to benefit (00:06:02).

Institutional Interest in Energy (00:08:04 – 00:09:00) There is growing interest from private equity firms, such as BlackRock, in the energy infrastructure space (00:08:04). While many companies enter the sector due to bottlenecks created by the massive power requirements of data centers, savvy investors are flipping this narrative, using infrastructure deployment to create dedicated profit and loss centers rather than viewing it solely as a necessary expense (00:09:00).

EV Charging as a Commodity (00:12:10 – 00:13:05) EV charging station deployment has transitioned from a niche concern to a commodity, with many large-scale retailers, such as Walmart, deploying level three fast-charging stations across their locations (00:13:05). Although industry rhetoric often focuses on grid capacity fears, real-world execution demonstrates that these challenges can be balanced through proper technology and partnerships (00:12:10).

Energy Load and Independence (00:14:59 – 00:16:37) Data centers and large-scale commercial sites represent gigawatt-sized energy loads, and while utility providers historically struggle to keep up, technology has evolved to support better load management (00:14:59). It is now possible to develop 100% utility-independent, behind-the-meter energy infrastructure that provides the operational reliability and controllability required by data centers, without needing to expand utility capacity (00:16:37).

Deploying Solar and Storage on Existing Assets (00:18:40 – 00:19:59) Existing real estate can be optimized for the energy transition by installing solar panels across industrial, retail, and storage facility rooftops (00:18:40). By combining this with onsite battery storage and improving building energy efficiency through better appliances, owners can significantly mitigate energy shortages without the need for vast, land-intensive solar farms (00:19:59).

Building Management System (BMS) Integration (00:21:00) Building Management Systems are critical for integrating high-energy consumption assets, such as HVAC systems and EV charging stations, into a unified ecosystem. By using software to manage loads based on user behavior—for instance, the amount of time patrons spend at a stadium or arena—operators can balance energy usage within the property’s existing footprint, avoiding the need to pay for increased utility capacity.

Monetization Strategies (00:24:16 – 00:25:57) Effective monetization goes beyond direct energy sales; retailers like Walmart have observed that EV charging stations increase merchandise sales by extending customer dwell time (00:24:16). Similarly, real estate developers in locations like Charlotte have found profitability in renting parking spots with charging stations during major stadium events, demonstrating the value of cross-beneficial monetization (00:25:57).

Regulatory and Approval Requirements (00:29:17) Regulatory authorities and city planners are increasingly looking to mandate EV charging interconnection as a standard requirement for new multi-family developments, treating it with the same necessity as water and gas connections. This policy approach ensures that infrastructure is integrated into the project’s design from the outset.

Military Housing and Geothermal Savings (00:29:17 – 00:30:32) In the military housing sector, energy infrastructure projects have successfully converted conventional HVAC systems into geothermal heat pumps (00:29:17). The resulting operational savings are substantial enough to subsidize the deployment of other amenities, such as EV charging stations, proving that creative financial modeling can unlock capital in unconventional sectors (00:30:32).

Charging Behavior and Amazon Case Study (00:31:27 – 00:33:26) Industry participants must move away from the mindset that an EV needs a full charge at every stop (00:31:27, 00:33:26). For fleets like Amazon, analysis of route requirements showed that deploying a network of level two chargers, rather than expensive fast chargers, was sufficient to cover the daily load of delivery tracks, illustrating the importance of aligning infrastructure with actual consumption patterns (00:32:31).

Battery Storage and Reliability (00:35:42 – 00:40:07) Battery storage and local generation assets are vital for reliability, particularly in locations where utility outages occur. These systems allow operators to manage peak demand charges, which can be significantly more expensive than standard rates (00:37:51). The economic viability of these solutions is highly dependent on local utility pricing, with different strategies required for low-cost regions like Kentucky versus high-cost regions like California or Hawaii (00:35:42, 00:40:07).

Bundling Resource Extraction (00:42:57) Bundling resource extraction can lead to significant cost advantages. By extracting natural gas alongside geothermal energy, hydrogen, and water from the same wells, operators can achieve economies of scale that allow them to provide electricity at prices as low as two cents per kilowatt-hour, a rate that traditional utilities cannot match.

Infrastructure in Developing Nations (00:46:46) In developing countries, deploying DC microgrids within communities can reduce stranded asset costs by 30% to 45% because common appliances are already DC-based, thereby avoiding the expense of AC-to-DC conversion. This cost reduction frees up capital that can be reinvested into essential social infrastructure like schools and tele-medicine.

Marketing and Consumer Economics (00:48:38 – 00:49:39) Consumer behavior in developing nations often centers on community, making infrastructure adoption faster through social influence (00:48:38). To manage service delivery, companies can utilize a “sachet” economic model—collecting small, affordable payments—which reduces the need for expensive, complex billing infrastructure while maintaining high customer satisfaction (00:49:39).

Current Pennsylvania Project (00:50:39) Work is underway on a 5,100-acre land development project in Pennsylvania. The team is partnering with the Department of War, which has identified interest in the site’s mineral and natural resources for national security purposes, ensuring a reliable off-taker for the development.

Military Installation Privatization (00:51:31 – 00:53:34) The Department of War is pursuing a strategy to monetize its underutilized land, moving toward the privatization of non-mission-critical commercial real estate (00:51:31, 00:53:34). This opens new opportunities for developers to secure long-term leases for projects such as AI data centers, hospitality, and housing, providing better conditions for personnel while generating revenue for the government (00:52:27).

Strategic Partner Selection (00:56:44) Stakeholders are advised to ignore the “noise” and claims of self-proclaimed experts regarding energy infrastructure. Instead, they should find and work with experienced partners, such as the episode sponsor National Energy Holdings, who understand how to navigate technical complexities and design profitable, revenue-sharing energy strategies.

Thank You to Our Sponsor

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Transcript

This transcription was generated by Gemini & edited by ChatGPT

Adi Soozin: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of 9×90. Today we have a very special guest with us. His name is Bartosz Wojszczyk. If you think we look alike, it’s because we are both Polish. But unfortunately, my track record is not as cool as his, because he has done more than $50 billion in energy infrastructure projects over the course of his career, which is why we brought him on today to answer your biggest questions about energy infrastructure and commercial real estate. Before we dive into the episode, I just want to give a quick thank you to our sponsor for this episode, National Energy Holdings. They engineer, procure, construct, own, and operate energy infrastructure for existing and new development real estate projects in the US, although they are considering projects outside of the US at this time as well. They also occasionally offer to do a revenue share of 80/20 with specific strategic partners over a term of 25 years. Bartosz, thank you for joining us.

00:01:10

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Well, thank you for having me over.

Adi Soozin: Do you want to briefly walk us through a little bit of your career? How did you get started in energy infrastructure?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: My background started as an electrician. $3.50 an hour, that was my career.

Adi Soozin: No.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Then I decided to go to engineering school. I actually finished my degrees in Poland. My wife was from the States, so we moved to the States, and my first job was for Puget Sound Energy (PSE), which is a utility up north, outside of Seattle. I was first an engineer, then I was an engineering manager, and then I was responsible for a $100 million EPC outsource contract from PSE to Potelco, and Potelco is part of the largest EPC company in this country, Quanta Services.

Adi Soozin: Oh my gosh.

00:02:03

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So that’s kind of how I started with energy infrastructure, and after that, life was blessed. It was wild, right? I worked for GE where I ran a smart grid infrastructure business from zero to two and a half billion, then Accenture’s smart grid business. Then I had the privilege to work for one of the richest Filipino men, Manny Pangilinan, who owns a utility in Southeast Asia, where I was responsible for a billion-dollar investment. I came back and opened my small investment fund where we were actually probably one of the first companies that invested in hydrogen technology, electric vehicle technology, and a couple of other very disruptive technologies long before people knew how to pronounce hydrogen or electric transportation.

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: We quickly discovered actually that money was not an issue, and a lot of our investors had a problem with operations and scaling technology infrastructure businesses. So for the last 10 years, me and a couple of partners, we’ve been operating technology, infrastructure, and energy businesses, taking them from early growth past billion-dollar scale. So through and through, infrastructure from generation assets all the way down to commercial retail, hotels, what I call commercial and industrial type customers, and along the way also a lot of distributed energy assets, renewables, energy storage, etc. So, I love what I do.

00:03:28

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Life’s been good and I’m enjoying the ride.

Adi Soozin: And you’re very good at it. Oh my goodness. So from cost center to revenue line, underwriting on-site energy into net operating income (NOI). Could you just walk us through that?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yes. So first of all, historically, we have to understand that most companies never historically looked at energy infrastructure as a profit center.

Adi Soozin: Mhm.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: It was always considered a cost center, either as an electric utility bill, peak rates for electricity, or the infrastructure you put in. In the last five-plus years, and that started actually by introducing energy storage and electric vehicle charging stations, companies started looking at how to move this whole amenity of distributed assets that is being added to commercial, industrial, hotels, even data centers or malls, and how to move it into a profit center opportunity where you can make money on it, either as revenue, an element of efficiency, or an element of reducing your cost…

00:04:45

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …of operating your real estate, which means improving your net operating income at the end of the day. So, I would tell you that generally in that conversation, technology is not a problem because there’s a whole slew of technologies available on the market today that you can deploy to improve your profitability or improve your net operating income. What is very critical is how you actually design the financial pro forma to enable that element. So for example, when we worked with the MGM or Marriott family on their hotels and they were saying, “You know what, Bart, we want to go across the portfolio of our hotels,” or we work with JLL, who has multi-family and they want to do charging stations, they would love to do some offset against the cost of electricity because they have to pay for peak demand charges based on their geographic location. So we were starting, first of all, saying, “Okay, give me your customer profile. Who actually lives in the apartment? Who actually comes to your hotel? What is the pricing sensitivity for the cost of the room, or what someone is willing to pay for that extra amenity?”.

00:06:02

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: “Would someone, for example, love to have that parking spot reserved with the charging station available next to the door?” Or in some cases, when we worked with the Marriott family and JLL, we had a Sheraton here, and they said, “We have a big stadium next door. So if we know that over the weekend the hotel has a lower occupancy rate, or many people who live in the multi-family go away for a weekend, how about we rent the space and amenity to people who come to the event so they can park and pay money?”. So we got very creative around designing customer behavior, putting this into a financial model, and then simply trying to decide if it’s a premium amenity or a revenue-share model. Because when you deploy charging stations, or like you mentioned our sponsor, they do EPC work, when they deploy energy storage or distributed energy resources of some sort, like solar…

00:06:52

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …then you have partners like that who can work with the real estate developers or hotel organizations saying, “You know what, for a specific period of time, we are going to attract outside customers who use the space, use a parking spot, use electricity of some sort, and we can develop a revenue-sharing model.” And trust me, the revenue-sharing model between the energy entities and real estate entities seems intuitive when you deploy the assets, but…

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …historically, those two worlds existed in very separate cost bucket centers and didn’t know how to collaborate.

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So by bringing two very critical stakeholders to the conversation—real estate, you have the space, plus energy guys like our sponsor who are experts in deploying, designing, and managing infrastructure—to really enable what I call profit center opportunities, is very critical.

00:08:04

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So my experience doing this all over the world, again working with large institutions, is that it’s very much about the user and customer experience. What do you want to model? How do you want to monetize?

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: And then properly design a financial pro forma that doesn’t look at the energy asset as a cost center, but truly a monetization strategy and additional revenue generation. And then the profit sharing, cost sharing—80/20, 50/50, 60/40, whatever that is—that’s up to stakeholders when they come together.

Adi Soozin: I don’t know who you follow on Instagram, but I follow a lot of private equity real estate. And someone posted this summer that BlackRock is getting into energy infrastructure. And as soon as that post came out, I was like…

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yeah.

Adi Soozin: …every single real estate titan is now going to start looking at adding energy infrastructure. And that’s one of the reasons I was like, “Oh, I better move quick on this news.”

00:09:00

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Well, I would tell you, it’s not only that they’re getting into energy infrastructure because many people are pushed into the conversation of energy infrastructure because it’s a bottleneck driven by the data center conversation.

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: But some people who are slightly smarter in this cohort, they say, “Well, you know what? Step back. Yes, it is a bottleneck. But if I properly invest and monetize, that could become a profitable P&L for me. Extra money, revenue generation”. So, forget right now about infrastructure. I will tell you when I was in the charging station business and we were deploying charging stations, we were the first company actually looking at the charging station as a profit center—MGM, Marriott, JLL, and others. And I will tell you that we were surprised how MGM, for example, and JLL were looking at buying technology and energy technology companies for their own consumption as a profit center because they knew that they will have to deploy specific technology in volume into their portfolio to even create diversification.

00:10:07

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: It was a branding strategy. “Hey, I have 12 charging stations,” or, “I have solar on the roof,” or, “I have energy storage in the basement. So, instead of you paying peak demand charges to the utilities, we will become almost like a mini-utility for you within the footprint of my real estate, and at specific price points from the utility, I’ll give you a discount or lower prices.” So, it became outside-of-the-box thinking, flipping a bottleneck conversation into truly a profit element. But again, you have to find the right partner for that because it’s not just like I tell people, “Yeah, you can go and put solar on the roof in your house…”

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: “…but again, at the end of the day, you’re not fully monetizing on the opportunity of that solar if it’s purely an asset on your roof.”

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

00:10:59

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So if you have EPC companies that really know how to think outside of the box—companies that don’t just come and charge you CapEx, but implement some form of financing or OpEx model, like a revenue-sharing model—that is the exact partnership you need to really look for in this new dimension of energy infrastructure play.

Adi Soozin: Yeah, this summer I did a two-week road trip with the kids up and down from Miami to New York.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yep.

Adi Soozin: And we took I-95 North, then I-75, and through these other cities like one highway over going back south. And it was really interesting to see all of the options, and the cities that have a severe lack of options for EV chargers.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yep.

Adi Soozin: There was one spot in Virginia where it was this tiny gas station that had a pizza shop and a Dunkin’ Donuts. And I couldn’t understand why it had thousands of five-star reviews. We pulled up and they had 40 chargers, 40 Tesla chargers for one tiny pizza shop on the side of the highway!

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00:12:10

Adi Soozin: And I was like, that’s brilliant right there. That is money.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: I will tell you, I have a hybrid for full transparency, so I pay more attention to the charging stations. As someone who comes from the charging station space, when we were deploying them, pretty much everyone was pronouncing doom and gloom—saying that deploying charging stations would cause the electric grid to collapse and that we didn’t have enough infrastructure built up. I tell people we will never be at the adoption scale of Scandinavian countries, where their adoption rate is in the high 80s percentage. This country will always have a mix of conventional combustion engines and some form of hybrid and electric. But I will tell you, since I got my hybrid last year and pay more attention driving around, I can pretty much go anywhere right now in leisure…

00:13:05

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …and comfort and flexibility, and I will always find a working charging station. More importantly, the dilemma and the anxiety that people had—saying there will never be enough charging stations and we’ll always have to wait for a parking spot—I will tell you, I never have to wait. It’s there. It’s available.

Adi Soozin: I have a horror story about that.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: And the best part is, even right now, Walmart had a huge tender two years ago because they are deploying Level 3 charging stations across pretty much every single Walmart location. Right now, I’m not kidding you, they put 25 Level 3 charging stations—which is fast charging—in the parking lot. It’s crazy. Now it has become almost like a commodity, and no one really thinks about this.

00:14:03

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: It’s accessible. So my point is, industry always goes through those moments of “gloom and doom, we’re going to collapse” because there’s something new happening. But over time, the market, industry, technology, and partners rebalance themselves, and things become a commodity. It’s just a matter of how you really make your money. It’s not simply a necessary investment; it’s about how you monetize it over time.

Adi Soozin: I think the doom and gloom has to precede the innovation. In March, I was speaking on stage in London, and I had just joined the board of an international energy company and an international data center company. Because I’m fifth-generation real estate, and we’re always speaking about how you want to build a city or a building with the tenants in mind—you’re supposed to be taking care of the people inside the castle gates—they asked me…

00:14:59

Adi Soozin: “How are you taking care of the local populations when data centers are sucking up all the energy and water?” And I was like, “That’s a great question. Let me go get you the answer.” But you need those people to freak out first.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: This is an extremely interesting topic. I’ve been in energy for 30 years, both on the utility side as well as an offtaker, and let me put it like this: energy demand is always in demand. Utilities always follow; they never lead. They follow the trend of progress. When I worked for Puget Sound Energy, or even for utilities in Asia or Europe, we always struggled to keep up with the interconnectivity of large loads. That was a consistent problem. You always have to build up capacity, figure out the rate structure, and manage peak demand charges or time-of-use rates. The difference between what’s been happening in that space for the last 10 to 20 years is that technology has progressed so much in the overall energy landscape today. So when I have big demand, like data centers—we’re talking gigawatt sizes…

00:16:37

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …which for some people is mind-blowing. For me, I’ve dealt with gigawatt sizes for the last 30 years. What people don’t understand is whatever you build and consume, you have to generate. There always has to be a balance; there always has to be a zero-sum between supply and demand, regardless of what you collect and what you build. So people who operate at the gigawatt scale understand the problem statement. I tell people the difference today is that I can actually develop 100% utility-independent, behind-the-meter energy infrastructure without the necessity of the utility. Because technology, interconnectivity, and the software that controls, balances, and manages everything have evolved so much, the utility is practically unnecessary for me to build something bigger behind the meter. I can even provide the necessary reliability and operational controllability to ensure we deliver on the three, four, or five nines of uptime that data centers require these days. Flexibility today is much greater in that area than it used to be over the last decade.

00:17:36

Adi Soozin: That’s a very good point.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So that’s why in the context of real estate, if you build in the city center, it’s easy. There’s enough capacity. If you build commercial and industrial outside of the city, you will always deal with capacity constraints, regardless of whether you have a data center associated close by or not. But today, what is very important in real estate is that I can put a solar roof in many places, I can deploy a geothermal heat pump, I can put flexible solar on the awnings or windows, and I can put very inexpensive energy storage in. I can integrate everything within the footprint. Now, I just need to marry this with a monetization strategy, the revenue-sharing element, the business model, and the financial benefit. At that point, I don’t even have to worry about how I am connected to the utility. We flip the whole idea of the energy business model around: instead of the utility being primary and needing a backup diesel generator…

00:18:40

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …the utility becomes my backup.

Adi Soozin: That’s what I was thinking of doing with the energy component. After that speaking engagement in March, you followed my career more intimately than others because you came onto the board of Origin. And now you’re here after I’ve done all these crazy negotiations with 15 different energy companies to figure out which one could add energy infrastructure the way that I understand it. What I was thinking is a very simple model: if we just took every building across the US that already exists and added these alternative energy assets to it, we would quickly notice that without creating hundreds of thousands of acres of solar panel fields, we could address the energy problem. Just by putting solar panels across every industrial roof, every storage center roof, every retail center, and shopping center. If you just put a few battery storage packs behind the building where the trucks are dropping shipping cargo containers…

00:19:59

Adi Soozin: Anyway, if you put solar panels across the roofs of the US, you’ll notice we’ll end up in a pretty good spot and not have this energy shortage that we do right now.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: There are three components to that. Yes, first is what you said: technology gives me what I call local energy flexibility on the generation side. Second, let’s keep in mind that the efficiency of everything within the building is always increasing. That means the demand component decreases simply because we’re deploying more efficient appliances and more efficient lighting.

Adi Soozin: Oh, wow.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So my demand is now, to some point, offset against that efficiency. And the third component, which we saw previously with the charging stations, is simply looking at the pieces we have. Let’s say we have a building that has 350 kilowatts, 2 megawatts, or 5 megawatts of connected capacity with the utility…

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00:21:00

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Then we look at what technology we can add. First of all, what efficiency can we provide to the building? Second, what technology can we add? Because if, for example, we’re going to deploy 25 charging stations, and each one—even if it’s not a fast charger, let’s say it’s a 20kW level—if we put 10 in, that’s an extra 200 kilowatts. That means we potentially need to design the building for a one-megawatt capacity. So the question became—and this was actually the conversation around why JLL invested in building management system software—it’s not just the technology itself. Now I want to integrate the highest energy consumption element, which is the HVAC (or some form of it), with the second-highest energy component, which quickly becomes number one: the charging stations.

How do we integrate this with the building management system so that based on customer behavior—who comes to the building, when they arrive, and how long they stay—I can effectively manage 100% of my energy demand consumption within the footprint of my real estate? I do this not by adding more utility capacity, but by providing a building management system with software-integrated capability that allows me to deliver the efficiency and performance I’m expecting. And we discovered…

00:22:15

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …like when we were doing this for very large stadium arenas where people come for events. We knew they stay between four to eight hours, depending on the event. So we were actually able, without increasing capacity from the utility, to design the entire system so that while people were staying, we managed the HVAC systems and the charging stations in a way that they never noticed their cars weren’t fully charging the entire time, but they were properly charged by the time they left the event. All without adding utility capacity.

Adi Soozin: This is the way.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: But again, that goes back to a simple concept. Just like having a Nest thermostat when you manage your home consumption, and sometimes the utility overlays demand charges or responds by curtailing the power. It’s the same concept for buildings. Who comes when? What is my existing capacity? If I add 10 of these units and I have this much efficiency, can I effectively deploy a building management system on top of it?

00:23:17

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: And by the way, this is autonomous. You don’t have to manage it. You can preset it and it will balance itself. And without going to the utility for more capacity, I pretty much still deliver the same service at a much better return for my monetization strategy.

Adi Soozin: Let’s dive deeper into monetization strategies. I noticed when I was on the road trip with the kids, we started looking for EV charging stations that were either at tourist destinations, like a science museum, or at a strip mall that had multiple restaurants. And what we found is that the higher-end strip malls had the more expensive tenants. I’m thinking about this with a real estate mind, and I realized the tenants here are paying 1.5 to 2x the rent rate per square foot compared to tenants like Dollar Tree or Five Below in the lower-income retail centers.

00:24:16

Adi Soozin: Have you noticed that when you add EV charging stations to a retail center, the revenue generated in those stores increases, which allows the landlords to increase their rent?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So the way we handled this in our financial model, depending on the profile of the off-taker of that infrastructure, was as follows. I will use Walmart as an example. We bid on that deal—unfortunately, we didn’t win it as a charging station company—but the reason Walmart eventually went big-bang on charging stations is because they discovered that having access to charging stations increased the rate of customers staying longer and buying more merchandise. And by the way, this was true for both electric car users and traditional combustion engine users, just because of the mindset of accessibility to the charging station.

Adi Soozin: Oh my god.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So, what originally appeared as a cost center for Walmart—something they had to invest in—actually made them more money because customers stayed longer, spent more, and picked up more merchandise.

00:25:57

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: It’s no longer just a Walmart in the middle of nowhere that only lower-income demographics go to. Now people spend more, and it even attracts higher-income customers to that Walmart because someone who owns a Tesla has a slightly different income profile than some of the other suburban shoppers. So their monetization strategy turned into an investment in moving more merchandise.

When we worked with real estate developers in downtown Charlotte, right next to the big football arena, they discovered that investing in charging stations in the parking lot was profitable because it’s really hard to find a parking spot next to the stadium. So over the weekend, they advertised: “We’ll give you a parking spot for free, and by the way, that parking spot comes with a charging station.” And of course, they charged the rate for that electricity.

00:27:07

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So they were making pure profit over the weekend by lending space to people going to the stadium to watch the game. It just requires slight creativity. We also worked with a Native American tribe that owns casinos and restaurants. They said, “Bart, we would like to put a charging station at every single casino and restaurant.” So we did a deal. They discovered that by adding charging stations, they actually increased food consumption in the restaurant. Someone who came to gamble would say, “Ah, I’m staying an extra hour because my car is charging. What else can I do? I’ll go to the restaurant and get myself lunch or dinner.” My point is, there is cross-beneficial monetization.

00:28:20

Adi Soozin: Yeah.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: But again, you need to get very creative. You need to step back and say, “Okay, what do I do with the charging station? How am I going to make money? What is the creative model I’m going to deploy here?” Honestly, Adi, it requires a very solid operator or EPC company—like your sponsor—who understands how to deploy and operate the infrastructure, alongside a real estate partner who understands the customer profile of who comes to their hotel or multi-family property.

Another strategy we pursued—and you are probably more versed in this because real estate is your primary domain—is integrating this into city planning. Just like when you build multi-family housing and you require gas, electric, and telecom connected to the building, we worked with the authorities…

00:29:17

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …to essentially require charging station interconnection as part of that exact same approval process. Which means if you’re going to build a multi-family complex, just like you need to have gas and water connected, you have to have a charging station connected, period, as an enabling element of that approval process.

Adi Soozin: No way.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So honestly, creativity is key here. Another example: we worked with distressed asset housing on the military side. In military housing, soldiers get a specific allowance for rent, and it’s usually lower-income type housing. We discovered that if we converted every HVAC to a geothermal heat pump, we created enough operational savings that we could use that money to subsidize the charging station component for that housing.

00:30:32

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: The military should have a billion-dollar contract to convert every single HVAC into geothermal heat pumps!

Adi Soozin: Oh my god.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: So my point is, you have to step back and look at what elements are not conventional NOI-type situations.

Adi Soozin: Yeah, that’s amazing. I definitely saw the Walmart thing. One of the charging stations we stopped at was next to a Walmart, and you don’t want your children sitting in a hot car or playing in a parking lot. So obviously, you’re just going to keep them inside Walmart. I kept looking at the app to see, “Oh, we’re only 50% charged. Okay, let’s walk down this aisle. Oh, we’re only 70% charged. Okay, walk down that aisle.” But it’s interesting to hear that backed up. There must be an actual case study out there for this.

00:31:27

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: With Walmart, the dilemma we have, and continue to have as an industry, is the mindset of the gas station. When you go to the gas station, in most cases, you fuel to the top. That’s the comfort level. The reason Walmart decided to go with charging stations wasn’t just the increased merchandise purchase. When we were working on the response to their tender, we were provided with information about their customer profile. The average driving distance of a Walmart buyer is no more than 24 miles.

So they knew that if they deployed charging stations, the only thing they had to worry about was covering those 25 miles. Because in North America and many other countries, when someone has an electric vehicle, there is a 99% likelihood they have a Level 1 charging station in their garage. Which means every time they come back home, they will plug it in.

00:32:31

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Which means when you go to Walmart, you do not anticipate getting a full charge. You only anticipate getting enough charge to be comfortable to drive 25 to 50 miles.

It’s the same way we worked with Amazon when they were switching to electric delivery vans. People don’t realize that the average route for an Amazon driver at that time was about 150 to 200 miles a day. Now, you have to account for the weight of the truck too, and energy consumption increases with the cargo weight. We figured out that if we put enough midpoints with Level 2 charging stations—which take a couple of hours—that cover up to 250 miles on a fully loaded truck, we would be good enough to build the entire electric vehicle infrastructure for Amazon.

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00:33:26

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …given the electric delivery trucks they use. You have to disconnect yourself for a moment. That applies also to real estate when you are trying to deploy innovative technology infrastructure. You have to disconnect yourself from the conventional way of thinking about deploying charging infrastructure. A charging station is not a fuel station. You have to think differently about consumption and customer behavior.

In the case of solar panels and energy storage, many people think of them as backup power, which makes them an extremely expensive stranded asset cost. Rather than stepping back and saying, “Huh, I have enough roof, I have enough real estate, and technology prices are dropping… what if I flip my model and think that I can actually treat my solar, my fuel cell, my geothermal heat pump, and my energy storage as a primary source of energy?” If you flip the model on how you think about this, you now have an opportunity to move it into a profit center, utilizing structures like an 80/20 revenue-sharing model.

00:34:39

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: That’s where you have to start.

Adi Soozin: You covered this a little bit, but can we go back to it for a second and talk about battery storage? Because I think a lot of people, when they hear “energy infrastructure,” they think, “Okay, I’ll get solar panels. If I’m in a windy spot, I’ll get wind turbines. If I’m in a place where people are going to be driving around—which is most of the planet—I’ll put in some EV charging stations, and then I’m done.”

But there are these peak demand surges. And there are also times of day where the sun’s not out, or at night, or it’s not going to be windy. So you need battery storage in order to ensure your energy supply doesn’t drop. And you also have peak demand, so you’re able to use storage to prevent having to deal with a surge, right?

00:35:42

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Excellent point, Adi. Let me step back and make the explanation as simple as possible so people don’t get confused. At the end of the day, when you have a building, you always have to have access to power. If you don’t have power, you have an outage, and your customer experience will suffer. Power is a 24/7 necessity.

Now, the energy bill on the NOI pro forma can be a very expensive item or an inexpensive item. I will tell you that when we’ve built energy infrastructure for some places—states like Tennessee, Kentucky, or in the Midwest—energy is dirt cheap. Three, four, five cents a kilowatt-hour. Hence, deploying alternatives financially does not always make sense.

Adi Soozin: Oh my god. Can we just pause for a second? California is 27 cents!

00:36:43

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Oh, I know. Because California has taxes upon taxes upon taxes, and a lot of regulation. But in many states, electricity is expensive. When you go to Hawaii, California, Maine, New York, or even some places in Florida, where electricity goes beyond 10 or 15 cents a kilowatt-hour, there are more affordable ways to generate or buy electricity.

Yes, you can put solar on the roof, which will lower the cost of energy by whatever you’re producing. That’s a great starting point. But if you deal with poor reliability, a lot of outages from the utility, and you always have to have a diesel generator on standby—which is expensive to maintain the fuel and the asset…

00:37:51

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …or if you have a situation where you are adding charging stations and additional demand without the utility having the ability to provide you with that capacity. If you have moments with peak demand charges and time-of-use rates where electricity can be two, three, or four times more expensive than your normal rate, then it makes sense to combine local generation. That could be solar panels, a mini wind turbine, or in some places hydrogen fuel cells, combined with energy storage.

The combination of the two will increase your reliability, reduce your outage time, and become a very affordable alternative to a traditional diesel generator and the cost of fuel. Second, it will allow you to reduce peak demand charges because now you are in control of where you take your energy from during those expensive utility periods.

00:39:09

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: And third, I’ve been to hotels in remote cities where, in the middle of the day, the electricity went off because the utility had an outage, and it gets uncomfortable. By the way, I didn’t stay in that same hotel a second time. It’s as simple as that. So, it helps to improve reliability.

It’s a geographic-specific situation, but yes, energy storage in combination with local generation assets can improve your reliability of supply (which enhances the customer experience), reduce outage time in remote places, and help you improve your NOI if you have utility rates that are very expensive. Usually, what we have discovered is that every time you go past that 10 to 12 cents per kilowatt-hour as a blended average—meaning you have lower rates during off-peak hours and higher rates during on-peak hours—that’s where the conversation of local asset deployment starts making sense.

00:40:07

Adi Soozin: I cannot believe energy is that cheap in Kentucky. I didn’t even realize we had energy that cheap in this country. That’s wild.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: I live outside of Charlotte, in Concord. I live in a neighborhood where everything is underground. We have no utility power system problems and no outages, even during big storms. I get a lot of people knocking on my door to put solar panels on my roof. The reason I’m not making that decision is because my electricity from Duke Energy is inexpensive compared to what it would cost me to put solar and energy storage on my house.

Everything is very much driven by geographical location, rates, policies, regulation, and who serves you. Even in this country right now, there’s a huge conversation about electricity versus natural gas, because gas is becoming very inexpensive as an alternative source of energy for many places.

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00:41:11

Adi Soozin: Yeah. Well, we have a lot of people who are trying to export our gas to their countries. I’ve been on a few calls over the past couple of weeks where we’ve had governments from different countries saying, “Look, 80% of our fuel was coming from the Strait of Hormuz. Our people are not going to be able to drive to work or the hospital. What can you guys export?” It’s like asking the oil and gas family offices what they have.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yes, that is correct. As you know, we’re trying to acquire plenty of land where we have natural gas and a couple of other resources that we are developing for behind-the-meter generation assets. I will tell you that right now, you can get natural gas pretty much for free in Texas.

00:42:07

Adi Soozin: You can, and then you export it for three to eight dollars a barrel or per gallon.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yes, although I’ve read a couple of reports by some smart analysts from Wall Street who predict that the era of cheap natural gas at three or four dollars is going to disappear in the next few years, and we will end up with an average of five to eight dollars.

Adi Soozin: That just makes sense when you think about it. You’re not just taking fuel out of the ground. You have to pay for the operations. Every gallon of fuel that you’re purchasing, you’re paying for that business to stay in business, for those employees to run those machines, and for the accountant who works in the office. You’re paying for the salaries of the attorneys, and you’re paying the insurance for the operations.

00:42:57

Adi Soozin: People don’t realize how much overhead goes into each gallon of fuel that they purchase.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Interestingly, you’re bringing up an extremely critical conversation. We’ve struggled in the industry because we always look at the energy component—whether it’s electricity, natural gas, geothermal, or hydrogen—as a single asset. One of our strategies is that when we extract natural gas, we are also sitting on geothermal. We will be extracting geothermal from the exact same well. By the way, as a byproduct, we’ll get water and hydrogen.

If I’m extracting multiple resources at a very small incremental cost, I am now in a situation where—we did a full financial pro forma on this—we have about 30 years of reserves for natural gas, plus plenty of geothermal capability. We discovered that if I extract multiple resources within the same profit center, I can actually go and offer data centers, or national security and manufacturing reshoring customers, electricity for two cents a kilowatt-hour. That cost is already offset by the other resources I’m extracting and selling at market value. So utilities like PJM and others will never be able to compete with me.

00:44:26

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Even if they give a kickass rate—I apologize for my language on a recording—they will never be able to compete with me on two or three cents. That two to three cents becomes 100% profit for me because the cost is already embedded in the other resources I’m extracting.

Adi Soozin: We do the same with real estate. My godmother is one of the past presidents of Rotary International. We were speaking with Esther, one of the mentors to the founders of Google, about how we could make it profitable to put hospitals and proper education—from kindergarten all the way up through nursing school—into countries or regions where they don’t even have running water or basic education.

00:45:29

Adi Soozin: One of the things we asked was, “What do we put there that makes a lot of money for a corporation so that they say, ‘Oh yeah, I’ll give you $10,000 to build the school next to it, but you have to have a trade school there because it’s training my employees.'” We do the same in real estate. We ask what’s going to make the most money, and then everything else is kind of just pure gravy on the side.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: When I did a lot of business in developing nations in Asia and Africa, it was the exact same problem: energy and water. You cannot go to developing nations and say, “Hey, I will develop infrastructure for you,” because the disposable income that already goes into paying for utilities is so high that they have no room to pay more.

So we worked with the Asian Development Bank and said, “First of all, let’s rethink how we provide the infrastructure. We will not be developing traditional AC grids; everything will be DC.” Your fridge, your TV, your computer—everything is a DC appliance, we just usually do the conversion from DC to AC. So we worked with manufacturers and said, “I don’t want an AC appliance. I want a DC mini-fridge, or even a gas component.”

00:46:46

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: We discovered that by providing DC microgrids within the community footprint, we reduced stranded asset costs by between 30 and 45%. That means I just freed up that much cash to say, “Let’s build a school. Let’s build a telemedicine capability within the village. Let’s regionalize and containerize food production so we create jobs.”

We started freeing up cash simply by looking at how we could rethink water production. That’s why we started looking heavily at recovering water from the ambient air. If you think about how much water people actually drink or use for washing, we’re not talking about the massive amounts of gallons we use in U.S. households. If you look at how much water a household in a developing village actually needs…

00:47:39

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …it’s one, two, three, four, or five gallons. It’s so small. So we looked at ambient temperature conversion and water cooling, but then we went to the vendors and said, “Guys, I know you don’t want to hear it, but if you want to be in these 25 developing nations, here’s $6 billion from the Asian Development Bank for energy infrastructure. Everything that you’re going to provide for the household will be DC.” Because now I can have a 12-volt light bulb that is as efficient as the AC one. I need a wire that is a fraction of the size, so the entire infrastructure is downsized by a factor of 10-plus.

Adi Soozin: Oh my god.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: And yeah, they didn’t like it because it required them to create a new product line specific to that environment. But I told them, “Hey guys, you have a choice.”

Adi Soozin: Either you do it, or your competitor is going to do it.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Yeah.

00:48:38

Adi Soozin: But whoever does it is going to own 25 nations.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Pretty much. And by the way, it’s a captive market. When they get a foot in, they’re in there for a long time. You will not be able to compete.

Adi Soozin: Yeah. I’ve been to 52 countries, and a few of them were emerging nations for humanitarian aid projects. Because they don’t have the speed and infrastructure that we do in the U.S.—where we’re like workaholic machines going from work, to sleep, to the gym, to the kids—they spend so much more time in community. So when you put an appliance in one house, everyone in the neighborhood knows the brand of that appliance within 20 minutes because they have so much more downtime spent with their community. The marketing and behavioral economics in those countries are completely different from what we have in the U.S., where it’s more isolated and reliant on targeted ads on social media.

00:49:39

Adi Soozin: You just get a few key influencers in the village, and you have the whole village.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Exactly. It’s the same way many people complain that in developing countries, there’s a lot of theft around the water and energy delivered to a household or facility. We discovered that instead of deploying very expensive technology to manage and bill for that theft, just let people steal it. Since most developing countries have a sachet-type society where they buy small portions of something—like shampoo or food—just charge them 50 cents a month. Rethink the way you bill them instead of investing in very expensive infrastructure. Honestly, customer satisfaction goes high. Second, my debt component reduces because they pay what they can. And third, I didn’t have to invest in very expensive infrastructure just to increase my collection rate. It’s as simple as that.

00:50:39

Adi Soozin: Do you want to dive into that deal that we were speaking about in May, or did you already close that raise?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Honestly, I’m still working on the deal we spoke about in May. We are still going through a couple of investors, trying to close on the Pennsylvania land. It’s 5,100 acres where we have a lot of mineral and natural resources that we will eventually explore and build into energy.

Adi Soozin: And that land is in which country? And do you have off-takers for the minerals?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: It’s here in the U.S., in Pennsylvania. We do have a partner, and as soon as we close on the land, they will be working with us. They’re a Department of Defense partner, and they’re interested in the mineral resources for national security. So as soon as we close on the land, we’ll get into a commercial relationship with them.

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00:51:31

Adi Soozin: That is one of the best off-takers to have because they are never late to pay their bill.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: No, they aren’t. I will tell you that I’ve done a lot of business with the Department of Defense. What is very encouraging currently is that the Department of Defense realizes that the commercial component of agility, speed, and readiness is very important to their national security readiness.

For example, when I worked with military housing, providing energy to 20,000 beds, 40,000 soldiers, and their families across seven installations, what people didn’t realize is that the Department of Defense has so much unused land on their installations. You’ve probably seen the recent announcements where they are looking at…

00:52:27

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: …building mega AI data centers on their land because they want to monetize it. What is beautiful about that is that the land is available to developers for free. The land is owned by the Department of Defense, and they can give you a 50- to 100-year lease contract. By the way, there’s plenty of energy available that you can either develop locally or connect with the utilities, because utilities are obligated to provide “five nines” (99.999%) of energy reliability to military bases of national security importance. So energy generally is not a problem, either by your own development or through connectivity.

The Department of Defense is slowly getting into that monetization mindset. People think we just need to be military-ready, but there’s a lot of civilian infrastructure on military installations—housing, childcare, medical stores—that are often under-run and in poor condition because there is never enough capital available for proper investment.

00:53:34

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: By self-monetizing that land, it creates an additional revenue stream for the Department of Defense.

Adi Soozin: Oh my gosh. That’s interesting.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: That’s another big opportunity right now when we talk about commercial real estate development. I believe the Air Force just privatized their entire hospitality and housing; they awarded that bid a couple of months ago. The Department of Defense is going through the privatization of their non-mission-critical commercial real estate. So, that’s another massive future opportunity.

Adi Soozin: That will be a really interesting one. I remember a few years ago when I spent a little bit of time in Georgia near Fort Benning, we were looking at all the multi-family properties popping up in that area.

00:54:43

Adi Soozin: What developers would do is go online to figure out the exact cost of the basic housing allowance for either the enlisted soldiers or the officers. They would start their rent at a specific rate based on who they wanted renting from that building.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Listen, I won’t mention the company, but when I was brought on by a group that won a housing privatization contract across the entire Army, the problem was that most of the houses on military installations used to be, and still are, in very poor condition. I apologize for my language, but I would never live in those houses.

So real estate developers were saying, “I have adjacent land right next to the military base…”

00:55:32

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: “…how much is the military paying you for that monthly housing allowance? I’ll give you a much better condition and a much better comfort of living for you and your family when you cross that military base line.” And in some locations, it’s a very good strategy.

Adi Soozin: Yeah, definitely. It’s a clear and easy win. Well, is there anything else you wanted to share with the audience before we wrap up?

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: I just want to make sure people know there is so much noise right now around data center complexities and their impact on infrastructure development. I always tell people: step back. Quiet your soul. Don’t follow the noise. Understand that 90% of what we hear is from self-proclaimed experts and companies who have never actually done infrastructure at scale.

00:56:44

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Find partners like your sponsor, National Energy Holdings. Find partners like that who have done it, who understand the complexity so that you don’t have to. There are partners out there who live and breathe solving these problems, and they’re really good at it.

More importantly, they understand that in today’s world, energy infrastructure is not a cost center, but a profitability center. The revenue component can be designed in a way that you can share it and pull real benefit out of it. So I always tell people: don’t follow the trend and the noise. Step back, find the right partner, have a quiet conversation with them, clearly articulate the financial benefit you’re looking for, and I can guarantee you that partners like that will always give you something worth considering.

Adi Soozin: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time, I appreciate it.

Dr. Bartosz K Wojszczyk: Thank you.

Adi Soozin: Thank you everyone for tuning in, and I will see you all back online. Have a good one. Bye.

This interview was conducted by Adi Soozin, Vice President of Energy Infrastructure Acquisitions at National Energy Holdings | 5th Gen CRE | International Speaker | 2x Best Selling Author

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